TODAYis Day 407 since Help Desk staff – ALL of us, have been working from home!
Sounds like an entry in a Doomsday Diary!
And … kinda right about that! So, of course, I immediately think of Time Travel! But, to keep it centred on TECH .. I will offer proof that the Commodore 64, and in fact, my own Commodore SX-64 is .. THE FASTEST COMPUTER OF ALL TIME! So .. Time Travel between different Techs and how fast they actually .. Travel through Time …. stay with me!
Absolute video proof that it is faster than any computer … AT STARTING UP! Hey, Time Travel is possible … but for now .. only forward!
You can see that my SX-64 is fully booted .. even before the Apple chime HAS FINISHED on my Apple 27″ iMac! BOOM! Hands down WINNER.. for starting up!
And as you can probably guess, my SX-64 is fastest at … shutting down too! Just turn the switch off! My 27″ Mac has to go through the proper shutdown sequence, and that can take anywhere from 30-60 seconds.
So, literally, my SX-64 is fasterthan my 27″ iMac – coming and going! I also have an old Mac SE, amongst other computers, too! But that needs a FLOPPY to boot up – and installs a RAM disk and … well if you know what a RAM disk is … good times … good times! And the SX-64 would still beat it! I even have an old external SCSI 100MB drive. That is NOT a typo – 100MB drive! Sure was an upgrade from 800K floppies!
OH, and that is my pet Flerken, Lilly! She is always on, so she wins by default! Don’t mess with Lilly!
So, sometimes old tech, even ancient tech, might still have a purpose! I want to do a post about the original, ORIGINAL version of iMovie! Yes, WAY back when! I created some training videos WAY before I joined The Computer Help Desk!
And I still have an old 24″ iMac in CALL, dedicated (i.e. NO internet at all!) for analog to digital video conversion using a Pinnacle Movie box. Works incredibly seamlessly, and literally, I can digitize a 90 minute VHS movie in about 90 minutes of real time conversion! Then burn it to a playable DVD (Single or Double-Density!) in about the same amount of time. BOOM DONE! And uses either USB or Firewire .. how quaint!
But that is another OAC Post .. in the future of course! BACK to the Future of course!
PS: This is my 200th published post here at OAC! First person to email me with this ‘200’ number wins a … chocolate bar!
NEWis good, right? Of course it is! And new technology is even better, right?
Absolutely! So .. NEW iMACS ARE FANTASTIC, right? YOU BETCHA!!!!
SPOILER ALERT #1 – Yeah, a big fan of Apple! Ever since I was able to convince a skeptical Macintosh salesclerk to ‘Test Drive A Mac‘, way back in 1984, I have been hooked! Okay, also a Commodore-64 Fan Boy too! But I do use WIN computers for about 99% of CHD stuff now too! I was able to demonstrate the all new Macintosh, to the entire teaching staff where I worked – and even to my night courses too! Good times … good times …..
The entire Apple “Spring Loaded” event is below, at YouTube! And just the new iMac announcement too! They are certainly a far cry from the first ever Macintosh sold by Apple! Click here to see a full roster of ALL the Apple Events going back to 2019.
iMacs will now be powered by an 8-core M1 chip, which is a huge step forward for security. THAT ALONE should be a major factor when considering a new computer.
Colours ARE pretty – but not new. Apple did a similar theme years ago with the a ‘Fruit Colors’ release of the G3 iMacs! And I just found out that there were 13 different colours! WOW! I actually still own the Graphite one – and it still works! All the colours are in a YouTube video below and an article here.
And if you want to see a HUGE GIF of them ALL NAMED as they make your head spin, then click here or on the iMac to the left!!
Full Technical specifications of the recently announced iMacs, directly from the Apple site: click here on the image/text below:
For me, the M1, Big Sur, RAM, CPU, SSD, 4.5K (there is half a ‘K’ now?) etc. are all fine and dandy. I expect improvements and enhanced tech in those areas. But I was SO GLAD TO SEE … A RETURN TO THE 24″ SCREEN!
I have a 27″ and it is … too large. CALL has had 21.5″ screens for years … and they are fine. But I really like that ‘Sweet Spot’ of 24″ monitor size!!!!!! Just seems the right size for my eyes and desktop.
And the new ‘Magic Keyboards‘ also look VERY promising! I am an old school fan of the wired extended keyboards and mice, but those are not an option, so I will eventually … get used to them!
The ‘new’ size monitor, Magic Keyboard and Mouse are the real imporovements for me. What you see, what you type and what you point at. Yup, those are key to me!
I will probably order my new iMac in July-ish, when their Educational promotions are on. So probably just a free headset that I will never use! It could be a cheap christmas present too!
I will just have to wait! I have small Table below (one of my new favourite ‘toys’ with OAC!) comparing the original Macintosh (128K) and the new iMacs announced!
And further below, is a great site, EveryMac that you can look up ANY Apple product and find specifications! A great site!
Mac vs iMac (Apples vs Apples!)
The TECH Stuff
Macintosh
(1984)
iMac
(2021)
RAM
128K maximum 512K
Up to 16GB
STORAGE
400K Single Sided 3.5" floppy! Maybe an external SCSI HD of 10MB if you were lucky!
256 / 512 / 1TB SSD
SCREEN
9" monochrome
512 x 342
"True Tone" widescreen "Retina 4.5K" display mounted on a svelte aluminum stand.
4480 x 2520
MOUSE
Clunky but works
Wireless
WIRELESS
Yeah.No. Cables galore!
Wireless everything!
INTERNET
HAHA x ♾
One iMac to rule them ALL!
PROCESSOR & SPEED
8 MHz 68000 processor,
5-nm Apple M1 processor with 8 cores (4 performance cores and 4 efficiency cores), an 8-core GPU, a 16-core Neural Engine, 8 GB of onboard RAM
Operating System
Original Mac 0.97
macOS 11 Big Sur
Original Price
$2495 (US)
$1499 - $1699 (US)
Weight
16.5 lbs (7.5 kg)
9.88 lbs. (4.48 kg)
FULL TECH details of Macintosh, iMac and … G3 MAC CUBE!
Anyone dare to guess what colour I am going to buy?
I will still go out on a limb and say that the SX-64, that I still own, and still WORKS, is the fastest computer ever built! EVER! Well, EVER .. for startup!
I will prove it too! BUT in a future post about how fast computers are! You will have to stay tuned for that!
And that is about it! Definitely .. Apples and OrangesCommodores!
Yes, a bit cheeky, but just think about how much technology has not only changed, but IMPROVED! Look below for a comparison between a mobile phone and the computers used to … LAND A MAN ON THE MOON! And don’t be so hasty to dismiss …. older technology!
Oh, and … learned about inserting a TABLE here too! BONUS! Tables are very curious beasties here at OAC. A bit of fiddling but .. they do work. Just fussy! And I did learn about them! And that will be a future post too!
I have been around for a few days … since October of 1989! Whoa, that seems like yesterday to me! A future post will have some slightly grainy images of what CALL once looked like … well before numerous renovations (scheduled and unscheduled!) and before The Great Flood of 2015! That was some kind of day! There are a few images in a previous post, which includes a pdf of exactly what CALL is!
And the most recent version of my CALL Jeopardy file is here. ALL of the files are there too, including old photos of CALL, the Great Flood and the rebooted CALL!
I was VERY BRIEFLY back at CHD earlier this month, to upgrade my remote laptop, and went in to look at the new furniture … AND IT LOOKS FANTASTIC! I sure hope we can get back to using our facilities, classrooms and ALL OF UVic soon, but in a safe, VERY SAFE manner!
A fairly busy day today, so some quick quotes about learning languages. I also include quotes in each slide when I give my CALL Facility orientation, so you can click HERE to see those too! They are current to January 2020!
Mostly, these are new, but there are a few favourites in here too!
And some Albert Einstein quotes too! After all … on the Quantum Level … everyone speaks the same language … and other magical things like that! Yeah, too many Marvel movies clunking around my head! But that is a GOOD THING!
All the usual Daily Links and YouTube videos are after the language quotes below!
Where Are My Keys . . . or . . . Forgotten Computers and Software
Where are my car keys? I can just ping them, right? Ah, if Life were that easy. Wait a minute, some car keys DO have bluetooth and only need to be close to the car to open and start it! Remember when car keys were actually … KEYS! LOL!
Full Disclosure – I still have car keys that look, act and FEEL like car keys! Most now have bluetooth and all you have to do is be NEAR the door, NEAR the car and the keys open and start the car! Ah, the good old days of fiddling with multiple keys … good times, good times.
So how many computers have YOU worked on and have … forgotten about! I had a post awhile ago about just that topic, ‘Open the Pod Bay Doors, HAL“.
Whether you bought them or used them at school or work, there are probably a dozen or more … Forgotten Computers and Software over the years. Me? Maybe a couple of dozen computers and many, many more software programs or applications!
Remember when the ENTIRE COMPUTER was one huge modular unit! And the very first computers I worked on at U of Calgary, were either hidden from site and you presented your punched cards (FORTRAN!) and waited for the output!
Then when I started taking ‘Computers in Education’ courses, I was handed the keys to The Vault! I had access to the ‘teletype’ room where I could code in BASIC and run the output on rolls of newsprint! Good times, good times!
The first program I worked on was for Probablity with a simulation of pulling coloured balls out of a ‘Greecian Urn’. And it even printed out an ASCII Greecian Urn! Yeah, I have a printout, somewhere in ‘The Garage’ and will look for it one day! LOL!
I was fortunate enough to be invited to a lecture given by Grace Hopper. And you might rightly say … WHO? Well, she was a TITAN OF COMPUTER SCIENCE! And she gave us all a … NANOSECOND at the end of her lecture! Wait, what?
She concluded her lecture (best lecture of all time!) with how she explained to her Non-Techie Supervisor, how fast light travels and how that impacts any lag or delay with satellite communications! She brought out lengths of ROPE to demonstrate how far light travels in a second and working her way down to a NANOSECOND or a BILLIONTH OF A SECOND! Turns out, it is about a foot!
And she pulled out about 100 small lengths of multi-coloured wire and spread them on the desk for us to take as we walked out. Well, I have never seen such a rush of people to get their ‘Grace Hopper Nanosecond‘! Fortunately I was able to get one for myself! Unfortunately, it has disappeared in my many moves over the years! But what a memory for me!
And I bet I can name a MASSIVE computer related piece of ‘software’ that almost everyone will have forgotten about … Y2K! And if you have NEVER heard of that term … then you are probably not much older than 20 years old!
Y2K refers to a software ‘glitch’ that did not take into account the calendar year 2000 in most computer code developed between 1980-1999. Basically, EVERYTHING!
Typically, amongst other problems, only 2 digits were used to indicate the calendar year, thus ’89’ and ’99’ were used for ‘1989’ and ‘1999’ in databases, calculations, spreadsheets, banks .. YOU NAME IT! So when the decade ended and we entered the year 2000 … uh-oh! Right back to the year 1900!!!!
I remember staying up, hoisting a glass of champagne and welcoming … ‘The End of the World’!!! But, or more punny, ‘Byte‘ nothing happened! LOL!
So that brings up … Y3K! LOL! I sure hope I am still around to toast 3000!
And this post quickly turned to Grace Hopper, didn’t it! I love telling people this story AND most people have never heard of Grace Hopper! AND an even BETTER Grace Hopper story! She is credited with the first EVER case of ‘debugging’ a computer …. LITERALLY!
She crawled into a computer … it was that big! And she found a relay switch, an actual MOVING PART INSIDE A COMPUTER and a moth had become ‘trapped’ beneath the lever! She then proceeded to ….’debug’ the computer and documented it! That document, moth and all, are in the Smithsonian now!
I found SO many articles, images, cartoons and resources while doing my usual bit of research for my post, I have more links below than ever before!
Articles on ENIAC, UNIVAC, Personal Computers, COBOL and most especially, Grace Hopper. Take a trip through time, wax nostalgic, and think back to when a computer took up an entire room, if not an entire building!
What you hold in your hands now is not just a phone – it is the FUTURE that visionaries like Grace Hopper could only DREAM of would eventually be possible!
When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.
The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Daisy Daisy . . . or . . . Songs About Computers . . . kinda . . .
Daisy Daisy … on a bicycle built for DU – PLEX? Well, the HAL 9000 never could carry a tune! This might technically be cheating, as HAL is singing a song, but I prefer to think that this was part of his diagnostics and it truly is a song about a computer. A very lethal computer! LOL!
Full Disclosure – I have never taken ANY music lessons and … it shows! And on my iPhone, I don’t have a single track of music. Not one. I have some movies, but not a single song!
So why songs about computers? Why not! It is my OAC blog and I try to combine computers, languages, words, programming, learning, pop culture and legacy technology …. all in one place! Hit and miss, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose and sometimes …. it rains! Can you name the movie line came from? No computer songs, but a great movie and soundtrack!
Surprisingly, there were not too many actual songs ABOUT computers ‘out there’. Lots of soundtracks geared towards the computer content of a movie, but a little digging and found a few things.
I consider the soundtrack to ANY movie, more like a character IN THE MOVIE! I bet that if I just mention movies with famous soundtracks, you can instantly bring to mind, some of the tunes that are part of that movie – The Hobbit, Pirates of the Caribbean, Pulp Fiction, 2001: A Space Odyssey, Apocalypse Now, Guardians of the Galaxy … you get the idea! At least, that works for me! LOL!
So, after this, I just might put some tracks onto my iPhone! I will probably start with the soundtrack from … Guardians of the Galaxy – Volume I! LOL! Yeah, probably bent my rules a bit to include songs sung by computers, songs written by computers and just plain old … favourite songs and soundtracks! Thus and hence and therefore …. KINDA!!!!! All those data bits gotta end up somewhere!
And the usual YouTube videos to follow with some BRILLIANT and HILARIOUS computer parodies of popular music videos! I was … amused by them!
And especially weird and wonderful – how to make a huge array of floppy disk drives actually perform in concert …. POP MUSIC! Definitely Weird and Wonderful today!
Throwback Thursday . . . or . . . Laughter and Chuckles!
Why did the chicken cross the road? Error 404. Road can not be found. ALMOST a … Dad Joke! Years ago, I once ‘collected’ cartoons from the comic section of newspapers or editorial pages, specifically looking for Math, Statistics or Numbers in general – for use as motivation in my classes! I probably still have them somewhere in ‘The Garage’ and will look for them one day and have a post dedicated to really old math cartoons!
Once, I included a funny math cartoon at the very END of a printed math test for my Grade 12 Math 31 (Advanced) class. This was during my Student Teaching year at U of Calgary.
I had the opportunity to teach ‘Probability’ to my highly motivated International Baccalaureat program at the school I was assigned! Well, this threw them for a loop! “Is this a question?“, “Is this for marks?“, “How do I answer this question?” and ‘What is this for?”
And to his credit, my Supporting Teacher let me do all kinds of crazy things in all my classes! This will be a theme for another OAC post one day!
One small amazing Fun Fact: I ended up being paired with not one, but TWO of my OWN High School Math teachers from my high school years … just by chance! What are the odds on that !!! Well, that is what statistics are for! LOL!
So, some Throwback Thursday humour and random images, YouTube videos and cartoons to maybe provide a chuckle or two!
And that is about it for today! A busy day with some meetings, documents and workshops at the speed of Self Pace too! I might throw new stuff in later! You just never know!
My first computer I EVER purchased! I think I might even have my original receipt! I will have to dig around my own computer archives aka ‘The Garage’ and see if I can come up with that papyrus document! And … drum roll …. I FOUND IT! Click on the image to see it in a bigger tab!
And why did I buy a C-64, specifically, the SX-64, the World’s First Luggable Computer? It cost me $901.95 (note there was no tax!) and that was a huge amount, in today’s dollars! Actually, it works out to be …. $1,962.18 in ‘today’s’ money! I used the Bank of Canada Inflation Calculator, which I did not know existed until this morning!
There were a few reasons – I had just started to work in a classroom that was FILLED with Commodore-64 computers, I was taking a graduate course at the U of C about Technology/Computers in Education and … a buddy of mine could buy it through his company AT A DISCOUNT! But none of those beat out … THIS IS SUCH A COOL COMPUTER! So had to buy the Commodore SX-64, which was also known as the Executive 64 or VIP-64 in Europe!
So it got me to wondering about how the Commodore became, at the time, the single best home computer EVER SOLD! And I came to the conclusion that … I don’t know why! LOL! Oh, well, maybe marketing has alot to do with it! Just look at Apple! I have posted about how Apple have made such fantastic ads before! (Yup, product placement!)
My ultimate, non-academic conclusion is that …. EVERYONE COULD OWN A HOME COMPUTER!!! And if Commodore could make it cheap, easy, small, available and FUN – then they found the magic recipe to sell MILLIONS OF THEIR COMPUTERS! And, literally:
The Commodore 64, also known as the C64 or the CBM 64, is an 8-bit home computer introduced in January 1982 byCommodore International (first shown at the Consumer Electronics Show, in Las Vegas, January 7–10, 1982). It has been listed in theGuinness World Records as the highest-selling single computer model of all time, with independent estimates placing the number sold between 10 and 17 million units. (From Wikipedia)
And it is a bit unknown as to how many SX-64 computers were sold. There was a rumoured DX-64 with dual floppy drives, but that never appeared.
The exact number of SX-64 sold from 1984 to 1986, when it was discontinued, is unknown. The serial numbers of over 130 SX-64s from series GA1, GA2, GA4, GA5 and GA6, with serial numbers ranging over 49,000 for series GA1, 1,000 for GA2, 17,000 for GA4, 11,000 for GA5, and 7,000 for GA6 have been reported. (From Wikipedia)
I will have an SX-64 dedicated post in the future, showing how fast it booted, cartridges that I have and how I can connect it to my Toshiba large screen tv too!
It really was an amazing computer! And speed – it boots up in about 5 seconds! And it only had the one floppy drive! Remember sorting through floppy disk banks! Good times, good times!
Fun Fact – did you know that Commodore actually made other computers, including a Commodore PC compatible and another one called the Commodore 128? Fun Fact!
Be sure to look closely at some of the vintage print ads I included after all of this! William Shatner HIMSELF – CAPTAIN KIRK – was a spokesman for the Commodore VIC-20 – the computer that came out BEFORE the C-64!! I can legitimately say – I own an Official Star Fleet Computer!
And that is about it for today! Lots of meetings and workshops! I might throw new stuff in later! You just never know!
Bold Italics Comic Sans . . . or . . . Word Processors Through the Years
Typewriter! Whiteout! Ribbon! Carriage Return! That was MY technology when I was writing term papers back in 1975-1982 at the University of Calgary!
Those late nights AND early mornings, pounding away, literally, on my Smith Corona typewriter – trying to balance SPEED with ACCURACY! There was no such thing as DELETE or UNDO … unless you count going through gallons of whiteout! BUT, I had a very HI-TECH version of correcting mistakes!
Basically, it was a dry ‘tape’, with dryer white ‘chalk’ on one side, and a more inert opposite side. But first, you had to recognize that you did INDEED make a typo, AS YOU WERE TYPING! There were no spellcheckers back then! And then, backspace manually TO THE MISTAKE, insert the correction tape, powder side TOWARDS the error, TYPE THE ERROR AGAIN to literally WHITE OUT the mistake, backspace AGAIN, and manually type in the corrected letter! Good times, good times! All this with a single, ORIGINAL, piece of paper in the typewriter! ARGH! And no automatic page feeds so I often ran out of room on my PRISTINE and ORIGINAL PIECE OF PAPER! DOUBLE ARGH!
And then I took my first computer science course! Although technically NOT a word processor, a massive desk with a punched card reader could be consider an early form of a word processor! Every mistake in code (FORTRAN!) I made, took about 30 minutes to actually DISCOVER from the Punch Card Elders who took my deck and ran it into the giant Punched Card Monsters! Then I had to dig out the SINGLE CARD that had a typo or bad code, and type it in again!
The day I discovered the ‘Function Switches’ feature, which would mirror all the text was like a miracle! I would press the copy button, then STOP, type in the corrected command or typo, then continue with copy and the card would appear at the end! Reinsert, hand over the deck and … ANOTHER TYPO FURTHER INTO THE DECK! Repeat as many times as necessary! Good times, good times!
And then, I graduated, not only from U of C, but onto SUPERIOR TECHNOLOGY! Well, at least, at the time, it certainly WAS superior technology! My first teaching gig was not only teaching a Beginner Computer Science course, but DESIGNING IT AS WELL! I earlier posted about Desktop Publishing, but … it was really just basic Word Processing with Apple and Commodore Computers!
Yes, that is the manual for my own Commodore SX-64 that I used for some Grad courses at U of C! And I used the worlds best FREE word processor at the time … SPEEDSCRIPT! A future post will discuss just how amazing the SX-64 computer was! AND IT STILL WORKS!
SpeedScript was free, had a spell checker and even had a PREVIEW of the final page, which was YEARS ahead of anything else out there! And did I mention it was … FREE! YES FREE! And amazingly, it used a markup language that is INCREDIBLY SIMILAR TO WHAT HTML IS NOW! Commodore computers were definitely ahead of their time!
And then a commercial word processor –PaperClip came along and … well, due to budget cuts, only 1 copy was purchased for me! Free is free, right!
And the first ever ‘office suite’ was actually a cartridge based system for .. you guessed it … my SX-64! It was called VIZASTAR and had … EVERYTHING you ever needed for what is now considered an ‘Office Suite’ – Spreadsheet, Database and Graphics … but no word processor sadly!
Why here? A future post will be about my SX-64 AND the cool software I still have, including one of he worlds first ever … LIGHT PEN called Flexidraw! VERY COOL even by today’s standards!
I brought up my Commodore SX-64 to our Systems Open House a few years ago! The theme was ‘Time Travellers – Meet the Team:Systems Through Time‘ Click here to see some photos from a previous post! (Yes, always, more Product Placement!)
And then .. progress marches on. The next generation of hardware and software was WordPerfect on a Commodore IBM clone. What? I bet you didn’t know that Commodore made IBM clones! THEY DID!
And I might start an argument, but I always preferred Corel WordPerfect (MAC) to pretty much any flavour of Word through the years! Okay, so maybe now Office 365 is better! But when I was helping to publish our CALL Proceedings, I made WordPerfect the recommended application. Of course, everyone ignored it, but WordPerfect did Word, BETTER THAN WORD back then! AND IT WAS CANADIAN TOO!
And then there is another package that I have briefly used, and is free for both current WIN and MAC platforms called Libre Office, which was once known as Open Office. I have only used it sparingly, basically enough to answer basic questions about it, and I am not sure it is installed on any computers at UVic anymore, with Office 365 kinda taking over … for free for students and staff! Which, by the way is a VERY GOOD THING!
And then there are now Text Editors – basically a blend of raw ASCII text with minimal word processing features. So, yeah … they are word processors! There are SO many of them, we all have our favourites and they are quick and dirty to see CONTENT as far as I am concerned. If you are using a text editor for word processing …. then let’s talk! LOL!
And if you think about it, creating a post here on OAC is a perfect blend of word processing AND text editor! I can switch to Text if I want to change some nuts and bolts thing with HTML, or just use the New Post and … see what happens! YAY FOR OAC! Many thanks to “mvh” for his patience whenever I have an OAC question for him!
Some interesting links to tickle your funny bone or perhaps feel compelled to put pen to paper – in a manner of speaking! Remember, I am old school!
I Excel at PowerPoint . . . or . . . Computer Puns and Jokes
I don’t know who you are or why you stole my copy of Microsoft Office …. but I will find you. You have my .. WORD! I hope I have ‘Taken‘ your attention away from whatever you were doing! Just when you thought it was safe to blog again … COMPUTER PUNS AND JOKES!
I always try to sneak in jokes, puns or riddles into many of my CALL Facility orientations and handouts too! I once included ‘Klingon‘ in a handout of languages that The CALL Facility had resources for! And it is still at ZOHO!
And then UVic goes and offers a course in Alien Languages (Klingon & Sindarin!)! That makes me a soothsayer! I wonder if that means a pay raise or not! My guess …. NOT!
The best part of puns are when they are impromptu and happen instantly! All too often, my eyes widen or roll about and that is an early warning system for colleagues … PUN ALERT! PUN ALERT! People know me all too well! I would be horrible at poker! LOL!
I found one site where a computer was programmed to CALCULATE the funniest puns and it came up with the following….. and …. yeah, NO! Even I have lines I do not cross … and they are often … lines of code! LOL!
I often say that if I am having fun, then the students are having fun too! There is so much stress nowadays that humour IS good medicine! I won’t bother telling you my absolutely favourite jokes and puns other than …
… it is always my NEXT ONE!
Some interesting links to tickle your funny bone, or perhaps, seek medical attention afterwards!